Jedi apologetic: Turkey burger edition.
lucas_piccinna: Congrats, you managed to say there are lot of reasons without saying any valid demonstration. 100% religious.
andrewjheckaman: he gave a valid demonstration when he quoted God’s Word
andrewjheckaman: 2 Corinthians 5:6-8
massimo2000s: congratulations you provided no proof what happens when you die
adespotos_skylos: you hive your deathbed to somebody else
lucas_piccinna @andrewjheckaman: first prove “God”; then you can say the argument “God said” is valid
cormackytyrone @lucas_piccinna: The arguments already valid so long as he’s had an immediate experience of God, as the vast majority of people do. So @andrewjheckaman doesn’t have to show you anything to prove validity. @adespotos_skylos considering your vast misunderstandings of God and Christianity, I’m surprised you’d be so eager to encourage others in their atheism.
star.wars.ascendancy@cormackytyrone: Having had an experience with god doesn't make anything valid. The human brain is very good at deceiving you. If you believe in god, it is only natural to want your "personal relationship" with him to be real. Most people who claim to have been abducted by aliens are called crazy yet many of them tell very similar stories and it makes way more sense to believe in aliens than in god.
: like how atheists often believe the moral experience firing in their brain is deceiving them, so they come away with absurd ideas such as raping misses smith isn’t REALLY evil, and killing children in the womb isn’t REALLY wickedly evil. It’s all illusion and preference to them despite the power of the experience.
The Christian happens to believe that those experiences are coming by way of an outside referent. So, is it more justifiable to believe in an immediate experience which comes as valid, or your just so story about why immediate experience isn’t valid? I’m open to a guy or gals story about aliens, I mean if you wanna call them crazy or punt to the culture calling them crazy that’s okay, but I’m not on the cultures page at all.
The culture is very mob rule and glib in many cases. In short, @andrewjheckaman doesn’t need to write y’all anything, it’s valid straight out of the box. 👍🏻
: the “personal relationship” is the foundation of the belief, not the belief founding the personal relationship. Respectfully, your point is backwards. That feeling of being in Gods company is where the belief in God comes from.
star.wars.ascendancy@cormackytyrone: When someone has a diagnosed mental illness that's not an illusion. People with mental illnesses don't do the bad things they do on purpose so it's up to someone's definition of evil. But according to Christianity slavery and drowning 2 million people aren't evil (so says the word of god). Also people with mental illnesses who rape children (cough priests cough) have been made by god so it's still gods work.
Also why didn't god do anything against the holocaust or the way Christianity was spread around the world? Guess that wasn't evil🤷. And yes they do have to make their non-existent arguments valid. Telling me that there are many reasons to believe in something yet failing to give me at least one is just ridiculous.
star.wars.ascendancy@cormackytyrone But I've never had that feeling, even when I was little and people talked about god like it was a proven fact and I don't think you can have that feeling when you don't believe in a god so it seems like the belief is the foundation
nobody described mental illness as an illusion, evil or anything else. Some mentally ill people are held criminally culpable for their crimes, for which they certainly meant to do the things they’re guilty of. The criminally insane for example. Mmhmm definitions of evil are important, although many atheists simply deny the reality of evil.
Slavery and drowning are deflecting and to go into them here would be both dull, time consuming and a reward for your deflecting. No sell mate. 🥱 If you look into the catholic pedo scandal you’ll find the majority of the "child" victims weren’t prepubescent but post pubescent. The Catholic Church has a gayness problem, not truly a pedo problem.
"All Gods work," God permits evil, He doesn’t promote evil. You’re given freedom of the will and that’s a well known Christian belief. Holocaust, how Christianity spread around the world, 🥱 yh yh that’s deflecting from the topic and an example of baggage you’re carrying. No sale. You should write privately to @adespotos_ skylos about God, free will and moral wickedness, I’ve already corrected him on the subject and as a fellow atheist he might be more generous with his free time than myself.
well not having had the experience makes it difficult for you, but not for the Christian. You might feel it’s invalid, but that’s not the Christians business when he’s already experienced the Lord.
star.wars.ascendancy@cormackytyrone so what you are saying is that the experience with "the lord" is the foundation?
sure. I see a guy beat his wife, I’ve never seen it, thought it up or done it, but as a child this deep moral experience takes me over and says it’s wrong. I might not even be able to articulate the moral experience, but it’s the foundation of my new belief that beating up your wife is wrong. Same goes for God. A Christian can experience God without any of the theological ideas they may or may not develop later. The experience of God makes the belief in a God existing.
star.wars.ascendancy@cormackytyrone But previously you said that the experience is the foundation of the belief. You're contradicting yourself. And you know that beating up your wife isn't okay because as a human being you can tell what's right and what's wrong. Not because of god. And isn't beating up your wife okay according to the bible? Y'know, if she disobeys one of the rules?
I’ve always written experience is the foundation of belief. You countered by saying people can’t have the feeling without first believing in a God, I corrected you by way of the moral experience and my experience as a Christian. So no, no contradiction, just internet atheism. Children don’t even know they’re going to die until the first family pet goes, there are a million and one things that a “human” won’t know or even consider until they experience it.
Morality is one, as is God in many cases. Yh yh beat your wife, deflect deflect, tell me a story papa. Come on dude, this is embarrassing. Stick to the topic or rant away at the clouds. God flooded your world and beat up your wife and you’re an atheist and this is jokes 😂
lucas_piccinna@cormackytyrone humanity has developed overtime a sense of common bad and evil; but this changes over time, and other species have other perceptions of good and bad. Of course each individual is different, but biologically we evolve to think in a certain way. And is funny you say there has to be evil and bad just because you think it. In Sparta it was well seen to kill weak babies for example, it wasn’t bad; it could happen in the future other things become bad or good for human concept
lucas_piccinna@cormackytyrone even your imaginary friend according to christians changed what was good or evil; as you say that before that was right (old testament) but now it isnt.
Though this actually shows how religious thoughts have to adapt to human evolving perception of good and bad
cormackytyrone@lucas_piccinna the OT was for the nation of Israel under the theocratic rule of God. Without that state and a temple God doesn’t expect those rules to apply. Literally God in their midst ordered those things for a certain people, unless you’re a Jew living 1000s of years ago they weren’t for you.
The NT outlines Gods plan for all humanity under a new and better covenant. Morality didn’t change because God never told you to avoid shellfish or pork. If I told your grandpa to keep off the grass, and I tell you it’s all good, come chill on the green, that’s not morality changing.
cormackytyrone@lucas_piccinna Your morality is subjective, mine is objective. I accept an objective experience as objective. You may not because you’ve got the just so story evolutionists gave you. I accept the moral experience with all the weight and power it truly has. You reject that objectivity because of a story about grandpa being a fish chicken. Evolution. It came down on tablets of stone don’t you know, from Darwin himself PBUH ;)
Sparta has more to boast of than most modern nations if you’re correct, they killed weak babies, their standard was whether or not the baby failed to thrive. Modern man pays others to kill their babies in the womb by the millions because they’re inconvenient. Not very brave or admirable really.
adespotos_skylos@cormackytyrone immediate experience 🤣 he can ask god for anything and get it??? 🤣🤣 describe heaven then! Nothing more arrogant of you claiming to know god
adespotos_skylos@adespotos_skylos new a better covenant?? Are serious? You just said the omnipresent omnipotent omniscient god got things wrong in the first place 🤣🤣🤣🤣 jesus said do not think that I have come to abolish the law of the prophets, i have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. So you once again contradict your self, you are also free to choose the version of the bible that fits you, it doesn't make a difference.
god didn't do anything for the holocaust because a. According to bible jews committed deicide and admitted that they will carry the burden for ever b. The vatican supported this idea and actually helped the nazi party to commit the atrocities in various ways and with their blessings. So god was actually on the devils side this time 👍
cormackytyrone@adespotos_skylos Which heaven, the Bible mentions 3. Go outside and tilt your head up, that’s the first 2 heavens covered. For the 3rd heaven read a book, preferably the Bible. Yes an immediate experience, the same kind of thing that tells you stealing, lying and hot oil massaging a raccoon are immoral. It’s like writing to an infant. 🤦🏻♂️ It’s not arrogant because anybody can have an immediate experience.
"Seek, and ye shall find." God gives grace to the humble, not available to a select few but for everybody. See, my friend, you lack humility. People who're gonna be humble come to the end of their rope and realise they’re lacking. They notice some unmet need, after which they move to the one that’ll meet their need. It’s a life altering thing. Then there’s you. Having your ass beat like Elton John @ pride would result in humility for most people.
They’d say “damn, describe heaven, ask god anything, lol lol laugh emoji, that’s dumb. I should do my homework before wasting somebody else’s time.” You don’t do that though. As an evolved turkey burger you should up your game. You just get internet beat, then you go somewhere else and post #deathcult after already getting internet beat. A new and better covenant is from Hebrews 8:6, you should google search the chapter.
See “better” doesn’t mean morally different, there are several categories. A track and field runner might set “better” records by breaking previous records in his discipline than the 100 meter butterfly guy does in theirs, yet that’s not morally better or even better in the same way. Try again.
cormackytyrone@adespotos_skylos: I imagine you’re thinking of Matthew 27:25, which reads "His blood is on us and on our children!" This was an answer by the audience to Pilate, Pilate who said he’s not guilty of the blood of an innocent man, namely Jesus’ blood. So you get a compare and contrast style. That’s simply to describe an exchange.
It’s not a divine injunction or an order of God. The Bible recording a conversation doesn’t mean those words are commands or meant to be read as Gods plan for people. In short, not everything described in the Bible is prescribed. People like yourself in Nazi Germany did twist that verse though as an excuse to harm others, so you’re literally using a Nazi WW2 tactic 😂
cormackytyrone@adespotos_skylos: that’s too good. 🤣
A. Catholics supported the Nazi party by misusing scripture.
B. You misuse scripture like a Nazi to attack God.
That’s classic foot shooting right there.
adespotos_skylos@cormackytyrone: their personal experience with god was that it allowed them to proceed on such things, as you stated again, contradicting your self is the only way of knowing god, so you have to acknowledge everyones personal experience and faith as true and not just yours.
Also the other side did make the stupid claim to credit themselves for the deicide for centuries, basically from the get go of the event so this proves the good old saying of you're basically killing each other to who's got a better imaginary friend. But you keep deflecting.
Did you actually believe god gave a better covenant after jesus, while jesus him self announced that he did not come to abolish the laws of prophets but to fulfill them. ? And how your personal experience counts as proof of god but others don't?
cormackytyrone@adespotos_skylos: the old high priest died and needed to be replaced. Jesus is an immortal high priest who lives forever to make intercession. That’s different, better in 1 sense. It’s better functionally while not being a change in morality. No contradictions except the ones in your head you’re desperate to find. Fulfilling the law doesn’t mean Jesus didn’t also bring a new covenant. New contracts don’t abolish old contracts.
My personal experience is to know God, a Sunni Muslim for example will say he “knows about god.” But knowing “about” someone isn’t the same as knowing someone. I’d take each claim 1 by 1 and as they come. Point being most religions don’t even claim to know God on a personal level. Come on Nazi pope junior. You’re arguing as a Catholic, an outdated Hitler era Catholic. Do you really need this free religious education?
cormackytyrone@adespotos_skylos an experience is valid to the person experiencing it. They don’t need to show you anything to know something themselves. So bring ‘em on and I’d be happy to study up. ✌🏻😇 Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, not every experience is the same and each has its source in who knows where. Sunni Muslims again don’t have a religious experience of knowing God. They’ve got beliefs about god founded on the Quran and Hadith. Atheists have beliefs too, mostly because father naughty shared a few too many mojito with them. 👌🏻🤣
adespotos_skylos@cormackytyrone: I'm glad you finally admitted that everything in your head doesn't need to be validated by evidence and it's just that, in your head. this is what I was telling you all along. Every single religion claims to know god by personal experience, 'miracles' happen to believers everywhere in the world for as long as history remembers, so if your personal experience is valid so everybody else's is, in their own head.
To the subject, the view that jews had nothing to do with jesus arrest leading to his conviction is invalid and contradictory. Jews actually had a very good reason to be upset as he was the one who went rampant in the temple overturning tables proclaiming the end is near and the temple would be destroyed. All this during passover the holiest celebration and the city full of pilgrims.
The idea that this isn't god's work is again invalid unless jesus, did not try to get the message across and the hero of our story was acting regardless of god's will and ended up getting arrested for no reason. Matt 5:17-20 clearly jesus commands following the laws, don't know what new covenant laws are supposed to be concurred or cancel the old ones
cormackytyrone@adespotos_skylos: a spiritual experience is part of knowing something, but for the Christian to help show you Christianity is true, that involves argument and evidence. The knowing is epistemology and rational warrant. The showing is argument and evidence. You should look up the word epistemology and the term rational warrant. So once again, to bring the argument full circle, Christians don’t need to show you anything to know God exists.
I never wrote the things a person experiences don’t need to be validated or that they can’t be later invalidated by further experience, rather I wrote that they are experienced as valid. That’s true and perfectly natural to assume until the thing experienced is proven otherwise, if it’s ever proven otherwise. Very simple. I don’t know what argument you think we’re having, perhaps English isn’t your first language and you’re simply confused.
Every single religion doesn’t claim to know God by personal experience, you’re wrong. Some religions, such as various forms of Buddhism, are atheistic and don’t believe in a god. Your errors are becoming laughable. 🤣 Honestly it’s embarrassing. I believe the Jewish Sanhedrin had a role to play in Christ being falsely arrested and charged. Jesus cleansing His own temple of salesmen was totally justified, Malachi chapter 3 predicts just that. There’s nothing wrong with ordering a thief or merchant out of your own property. You’ve already been corrected on your misunderstanding of Matthew chapter five.
cormackytyrone@adespotos_skylos: experiences though occurring in the mind and the body don’t necessarily originate in the brain and bodily organs. The heat of a fire from without the body sends singles within the body. Those sensations and experiences are prompted by an outside referent. The experience of moral dimensions isn’t imaginary but is prompted by an event outside of the brain. The experience of God is prompted by an outside referent, namely God. I’ve already explained this to you. 🤦🏻♂️
adespotos_skylos@cormackytyrone: if you want to be taken seriously you have to give evidence supporting your claims, a trip through a psych ward will give you a good idea what looks like when your beliefs are valid only to your self and thus real. All religions 'know' god, it's what they proclaim.
Visions, miracles, prophecies erc are personal experiences of what their god means to them, while you insist on the notion you're the only one experiencing 'true' god and others don't, you argue not every 'experience' is the same and no one has to show me or you anything to know something themselves, they don't need you to validate their 'experience' do they?
To close this "experiences occurring in the mind and the body don't necessarily originate in the brain or bodily organs, is this out of a chakra book or what? Where I come from minds are housed in brains, if you have any sort of indication that minds can exist outside brains please go and prove it! Malachi 3 is a prophecy only if jesus as a jew knew nothing about the teachings and jewish traditions, jesus was appealing to the 'prophecy'.
But jews never expected a suffering messiah, they expected a king to set things straight to free the kingdom of israel from foreign ruling, but didn't happen. You did not correct anything on matt 5, actually you made things worse, it's either fulfill the laws until... or change them not both.
cormackytyrone@adespotos_skylos: Until you grasp the arguments, who you take seriously in a non issue. The original argument was about whether @andrewjheckaman needed to prove Gods existence in order for another argument to be “valid,” and as I’ve exhaustively proven that’s not required. Atheists are wrong. You demand evidence without realising experience is a kind of evidence. The fact that you want to shift the convo from validity, experience and warrant into whatever you define as “evidence” tells me you’re another lonely atheist wanting attention.
Jump from 1 failed argument to the next and pray (to the god you don’t believe in) that nobody notices. Although you replied on Saturday so maybe you’re just off from school instead 🤣 Knowledge, warrant and validity are a separate question from proving the existence of God to an audience of howling atheists. All religions don’t claim to know God by personal experience, Buddhism and Islam are examples I’ve already tabled. Either refute my arguments to do with ATHEISTIC Buddhism and Islam or stop humiliating yourself. 🤦🏻♂️
You can’t refute my arguments. That’s grim reality. If you’d like to continue arguing ATHEISTIC Buddhists claim to know God by personal experience, it’s your funeral. 💀 I’ve never read a Chakra book. 🤷🏻♂️ Did you learn to dodge arguments in your Chakra book? 😂 The fact that you confused epistemology with mysticism really shows you up as an uneducated atheist. There are an array of arguments and experiments which demonstrate the brain and mind are distinct, separate things. You should do the research yourself rather than waste my time. Inspiring philosophy provides an overview of the topic.
cormackytyrone@adespotos_skylos: The Jews actually expected 2 messiahs, the first, a suffering messiah who would be murdered, and secondly a messiah to rule and reign. So your claim “Jews never expected a suffering messiah” is factually wrong. History homework? F- You’re reaching a point where everything you write is demonstrably false, literally everything.
You’ve been corrected on Matthew chapter 5. Jesus comes to fulfil the law, notice the demands of the law can’t be fulfilled by even our Jewish friends in the modern world. They don’t have a temple in which to perform sacrifices. Jesus however does meet the demands and completely fulfilled the mosaic laws on behalf of the nation and even the entire world.
Romans chapter 8 explained: “For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.”
adespotos_skylos@cormackytyrone: nice word soup. Losing your mind? Firstly I never brought up any 'atheist buddhists' in the conversation,you did for some reason, I am least concerned what buddhism says or doesn't. I am discussing with you atm. Do you have any evidence minds exist outside brains? If you do provide them.
you think epistemology for some reason supports your claims because you know that you know it's true, every lunatic thinks so, your brain isn't equipped better than anyone's in experiencing truth, atheism or christianity, but when you make a claim like i know god because my personal experience says so don't expect to be taken seriously without any proof of your claims. As jesus said true believers ask and shall receive matt21:21-22. Only a miracle will save you.
2 messiahs?? Well no one showed up that's for sure! Jesus preached : truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of god has come in power. The judgement day supposed to come, guess what... every verse reference of a messiah was of a man of great power, leader, the king of jews, god's favorite. No suffering messiah. Romans 8 comes at odds with matt 5:17-20 in general paul says only by faith in jesus death and resurrection can earn god's grace but matt argues to the contrary, komanetsi of mental gymnastics there. Matt 25:31-45 another example of being good can get you in to heavens. Some of us work long hours, I occasionally have fun here...
cormackytyrone@adespotos_skylos “every single religion claims to know god by personal experience,” your words, not mine. Buddhism is a religion. Judge it as a religion either by tax exempt status (legally) or the claim of countless Buddhists. You claim every religion claims to know god by personal experience. A false claim, as proven by atheistic Buddhism. You aren’t concerned what Buddhism teaches because you’re ignorant and happy to remain ignorant. Getting your ass handed to you is fun? 😂
cormackytyrone@adespotos_skylos: Yes the claim that the kingdom of God will come in power (even in that generation) is supported by the destruction of Jerusalem. Partial preterism, do the research.....also do the research on mind brain distinction and Buddhism.
cormackytyrone@adespotos_skylos you believe the scripture contains errors and one chapter contradicts another because you’re hungry to find error (in your mind God “created sin” in Isaiah remember?) You’re gagging for an issue with the Bible and it’s only robbed you of a proper, grown up understanding of the text. Yes, two messiahs, a suffering messiah, something you insisted the Jews never believed in.
cormackytyrone@adespotos_skylos You: The Jews never believed in a suffering messiah.
Me: Oh yes they did, they believed in one suffering messiah and one ruling messiah.
You: Nobody came anyway!
You: Every religion claims to know god by personal experience.
Me: Buddhists don’t and Muslims don’t.
You....again: Every religion claims to know god by personal experience.
Me: No they don’t. Buddhists are atheists and don’t claim to know God by personal experience.
You: I don’t even care what Buddhists believe!
🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️ If you could reflect on this....
adespotos_skylos@cormackytyrone I don't believe, it's obviously contradictory. Minds are housed in brains. If you know otherwise prove it. God created calamity, and evil, gen 3:1 the most cunning of all beasts! You insisted evil is a privation of goodness.
And blamed the translations and interpretations. As I said mental gymnastics at its best. If you stretch it so far can make anything fit together. Bible is man made as anything else man made in this world and that's how it should be treated.
adespotos_skylos@cormackytyrone: where do I find the two messiahs story? Verse?
cormackytyrone: @adespotos_skylos do a google search dude. 🤦🏻♂️ The Jewish view on two messiahs is a matter of historic record, not Bible verse.
adespotos_skylos@cormackytyrone jerusalem was already under foreign ruling bce and ce period for years nothing out of the ordinary, they actually expected god to save them
adespotos_skylos@cormackytyrone every religion claims to know god by personal experience, it's what religions claim, not me. You claim to know better but failed to prove it. You brought up islam and buddhism as an example but you don't provide how your personal experience is valid. Oh because you know you know! All religions claim miracles, personal experience. I am not arguing theology of other dogmas.
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@adespotos_skylos every religion doesn’t, as atheistic Buddhism proves. But you wouldn’t want to know anything about that. :)
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@cormackytyrone I thought we were arguing of what's in the bible, not what every village in israel believed or expected at various times through history. Some were hellenized, will you bring greek traditions in the mix as well?
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@cormackytyrone still you don't provide the evidence how you know you know god from personal experience is any different than anyone else's "experience" or miracles which is personal experience
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@adespotos_skylos mate, your credibility is done here. You have some growing to do as a person. ✌🏻
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@cormackytyrone you are cornered and deflecting off topic, we are not debating buddhism here, you made a claim, you have a personal experience with god, that the rest don't have for some reason. Prove it, as matt21:21-22 says if you are a true believer you can ask and shall receive!
@cormackytyrone I don't see how you missed the self refuting argument here, 'atheists buddhist don't have a personal experience with god' from what I see you seem quite knowledgeable about religions...
― Tyrone Cormack